There are plenty who … claim to be competent at intubation even though their last intubation was months ago on the third attempt and if the patient had not already been dead – that would have finished the patient off …

- Rogue Medic

The PROCAMIO Trial – IV Procainamide vs IV Amiodarone for the Acute Treatment of Stable Wide Complex Tachycardia

ResearchBlogging.org
 

This is a very interesting trial that may surprise the many outspoken amiodarone advocates, but it should not surprise anyone who pays attention to research.

ALPS showed that we should stop giving amiodarone for unwitnessed shockable cardiac arrest. The lead researcher is still trying to spin amiodarone for witnessed shockable cardiac arrest, even though the results do not show improvement in the one outcome that matters – leaving the hospital with a brain that still works.[1],[2],[3]

There is an excellent discussion of the study on the podcast by Dr. Salim Rezaie and Dr. Anand Swaminathan REBELCast: The PROCAMIO Trial – IV Procainamide vs IV Amiodarone for the Acute Treatment of Stable Wide Complex Tachycardia.

One problem with the study that they do not address on the podcast is that the patients in the study appear to have had time to watch Casablanca before treatment started. Here’s looking at you, while we’re waiting, kid. This is apparently unintentional one way of doing a placebo washout. If we wait long enough . . . .
 

Time from arrival to start of infusion was 87 ± 21 min for procainamide and 115 ± 36 min for amiodarone patients (P = 0.58).[4]

 

If nothing else, this demonstrates how little we need to worry about immediately pushing drugs for stable monomorphic VT (V Tach or Ventricular Tachycardia). Should we expect much from antiarrhythmic treatment?

Research shows that for stable monomorphic VT (V Tach or Ventricular Tachycardia) amiodarone is not very likely to be followed by an improvement. Only 29%[5] or only 25%[6] or only 15% within 20 minutes, but if we don’t mind waiting an hour it can be as much as 29%.[7] For those of you who are not good at math, that means amiodarone is about the same as doing nothing, only it comes in a syringe. Even though these poor outcomes ignore the side effects, they are the best evidence in favor of amiodarone, so what Kool-Aid are the advocates drinking?

Adenosine, yes adenosine the SVT (SupraVentricular Tachycardia) drug, appears to be more effective at treating ventricular tachycardia than amiodarone – and adenosine is faster and safer than amiodarone.[8]

What if the patient becomes unstable? First start an IV (IntraVenous) line. Then sedate the patient. Then apply defibrillator pads. After the patient is adequately sedated, then cardiovert. We do not need the pads on the patient first. If it takes a while to put the pads on, that is a problem with the ability of the doctors and nurses, not a medical problem.

It does not appear as if any patient received amiodarone or procainamide until after waiting in the ED (Emergency Department) for over an hour. Were some patients cardioverted in well under an hour? Probably. The important consideration is that the doctors and nurses be able to apply the defibrillator pads properly and quickly and deliver a synchronized cardioversion in less than a minute. If the patient has not yet been sedated, the cardioversion should be delayed until after the patient is adequately sedated, so the intervention that depends most on time is the sedation of the patient.
 

VT + Amiodarone Cardioversion
 

Is there a better treatment than amiodarone? Sedate the patient before the patient becomes unstable, then cardiovert. How do the MACEs (Major Adverse Cardiac Events) compare with sedation and cardioversion vs. antiarrhythmic treatment.
 

5.4 Proarrhythmia
Amiodarone may cause a worsening of existing arrhythmias or precipitate a new arrhythmia. Proarrhythmia, primarily torsade de pointes (TdP), has been associated with prolongation, by intravenous amiodarone, of the QTc interval to 500 ms or greater. Although QTc prolongation occurred frequently in patients receiving intravenous amiodarone, TdP or new-onset VF occurred infrequently (less than 2%). Monitor patients for QTc prolongation during infusion with amiodarone. Reserve the combination of amiodarone with other antiarrhythmic therapies that prolong the QTc to patients with life-threatening ventricular arrhythmias who are incompletely responsive to a single agent.
[9]

 

All antiarrhythmic drugs can cause arrhythmias. In the absence of information about a specific problem that is best addressed by a specific drug (amiodarone is the opposite of specific), we should avoid treatments that have such a high potential for harm.

Amiodarone doesn’t even do a good job of preventing arrhythmias.
 

Intravenous amiodarone did not prevent induction of sustained ventricular tachycardia in any of five patients inducible at baseline. Of six patients with non-sustained ventricular tachycardia, five had sustained ventricular tachycardia or fibrillation induced after amiodarone infusion.[10]

 

Is anything worse than amiodarone? Even epinephrine, yes epinephrine the inadequately tested cardiac arrest drug, has been followed by improved outcomes from V Tach after amiodarone failed.[11]
 

What is best for the patient?

Sedation, search for reversible causes, apply defibrillator pads, and be prepared to cardiovert.

Maybe sedation isn’t that important? This is by Dr. Peter Kowey, one of the top cardiologists in the world.
 

The man’s very first utterance was, “If it happens again, just let me die.”

As I discovered, the reason for this patient’s terror was that he had been cardioverted in an awake state. Ventricular tachycardia had been relatively slow, he had not lost consciousness, and the physicians, in the heat of the moment, had not administered adequate anesthesia. Although the 5 mg of intravenous diazepam had made him a bit drowsy, he felt the electric current on his chest and remembered the event clearly.

The patient’s mental state complicated the case considerably.[12]

 

How unimportant is sedation? How unimportant is consent?

For sedation, I would recommend ketamine, but etomidate was recommended in the podcast. Both work quickly and the most important obstacle to immediate treatment of a patient who suddenly deteriorates is the time to effect of sedation. Neither drug is expected to interfere with perfusion, which is the main excuse given for avoiding sedation for cardioversion.

This study is very small (not the fault of the authors), but it adds to the evidence that amiodarone is not a good first treatment for the patient.
 

Go listen to the podcast by Dr. Salim Rezaie and Dr. Anand Swaminathan REBELCast: The PROCAMIO Trial – IV Procainamide vs IV Amiodarone for the Acute Treatment of Stable Wide Complex Tachycardia

 

Over the years, I have written a bit about cardioversion and the importance of sedation –

Cardioversion – I’m not doing that, you do it! – Mon, 24 Mar 2008

Cardioversion – 2010 ACLS – Part I – Mon, 25 Oct 2010

Cardioversion – 2010 ACLS – Part II – Sun, 31 Oct 2010

Cardioversion – 2010 ACLS – Part III – Thu, 11 Nov 2010

On the relative wisdom of synchronized cardioversion without sedation – Part I – Thu, 11 Nov 2010

On the relative wisdom of synchronized cardioversion without sedation – Part II – Fri, 12 Nov 2010

Synchronized Cardioversion Without Sedation – Part II Scallywag’s Response – Sun, 14 Nov 2010

On the relative wisdom of synchronized cardioversion without sedation – Part III – Tue, 16 Nov 2010

On the relative wisdom of synchronized cardioversion without sedation – Part IV – Wed, 24 Nov 2010

Comments on Cardioversion – 2010 ACLS – Part II – Mon, 16 Apr 2012
 

I have also written a bit about amiodarone –

Merit Badge Courses, Amiodarone, and tPA – Fri, 17 Sep 2010

Amiodarone for Cardiac Arrest in the 2010 ACLS – Part I – Wed, 01 Dec 2010

Amiodarone for Cardiac Arrest in the 2010 ACLS – Part II – Fri, 03 Dec 2010

Is Nexterone the Next Amiodarone? – Sat, 04 Dec 2010

Amiodarone for Cardiac Arrest in the 2010 ACLS – Part III – Mon, 06 Dec 2010

Where are the Black Box Warnings on These Drugs – I – Mon, 05 Dec 2011

Where are the Black Box Warnings on These Drugs – II – Sun, 11 Dec 2011

Is Amiodarone the Best Drug for Stable Ventricular Tachycardia – Wed, 14 Dec 2011

V Tach Storm – Part I – Wed, 28 Dec 2011

V Tach Storm – Part II – Thu, 29 Dec 2011

Nifekalant versus lidocaine for in-hospital shock-resistant ventricular fibrillation or tachycardia – Wed, 04 Jan 2012

NIH launches trials to evaluate CPR and drugs after sudden cardiac arrest – Sun, 29 Jan 2012

What Will Be the Next Standard Of Care We Eliminate – Wed, 28 Mar 2012

Happy Adenosine Day – Tue, 12 Jun 2012

Too Much Medicine and Evidence-Based Guidelines – Part I – Tue, 26 Jun 2012

Too Much Medicine and Evidence-Based Guidelines – Part II – Tue, 03 Jul 2012

Ondansetron (Zofran) Warning for QT Prolongation – is Amiodarone next? – Part I – Mon, 02 Jul 2012

Ondansetron (Zofran) Warning for QT Prolongation – is Amiodarone next? – Part II – Thu, 05 Jul 2012

Wide variability in drug use in out-of-hospital cardiac arrest: A report from the resuscitation outcomes consortium – Part I – Mon, 17 Sep 2012

Wide variability in drug use in out-of-hospital cardiac arrest: A report from the resuscitation outcomes consortium – Part II – Tue, 18 Sep 2012

How do we measure the QT segment when there are prominent U waves? – Thu, 13 Dec 2012

Woman with Risks for Torsades de Pointes Dying within Hours of Leaving the Emergency Department – Wed, 02 Jan 2013

Examples of Ventricular Tachycardia Caused by Amiodarone – Part I – Tue, 28 May 2013

Publication Bias – The Lit Whisperers – Tue, 11 Jun 2013

Standards Of Care – Ventricular Tachycardia – Wed, 31 Jul 2013

Footnotes:

[1] Dr. Kudenchuk is Misrepresenting ALPS as ‘Significant’
Tue, 12 Apr 2016
Rogue Medic
Article

[2] Amiodarone, Lidocaine, or Placebo in Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest
Mon, 04 Apr 2016
Rogue Medic
Article

[3] Amiodarone, Lidocaine, or Placebo in Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest.
Kudenchuk PJ, Brown SP, Daya M, Rea T, Nichol G, Morrison LJ, Leroux B, Vaillancourt C, Wittwer L, Callaway CW, Christenson J, Egan D, Ornato JP, Weisfeldt ML, Stiell IG, Idris AH, Aufderheide TP, Dunford JV, Colella MR, Vilke GM, Brienza AM, Desvigne-Nickens P, Gray PC, Gray R, Seals N, Straight R, Dorian P; Resuscitation Outcomes Consortium Investigators.
N Engl J Med. 2016 May 5;374(18):1711-22. doi: 10.1056/NEJMoa1514204. Epub 2016 Apr 4.
PMID: 27043165

CONCLUSIONS
Overall, neither amiodarone nor lidocaine resulted in a significantly higher rate of survival or favorable neurologic outcome than the rate with placebo among patients with out-of-hospital cardiac arrest due to initial shock-refractory ventricular fibrillation or pulseless ventricular tachycardia.

[4] Randomized comparison of intravenous procainamide vs. intravenous amiodarone for the acute treatment of tolerated wide QRS tachycardia: the PROCAMIO study.
Ortiz M, Martín A, Arribas F, Coll-Vinent B, Del Arco C, Peinado R, Almendral J; PROCAMIO Study Investigators.
Eur Heart J. 2016 Jun 28. pii: ehw230. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 27354046

Free Full Text from European Heart Journal.

[5] Amiodarone or procainamide for the termination of sustained stable ventricular tachycardia: an historical multicenter comparison.
Marill KA, deSouza IS, Nishijima DK, Senecal EL, Setnik GS, Stair TO, Ruskin JN, Ellinor PT.
Acad Emerg Med. 2010 Mar;17(3):297-306.
PMID: 20370763 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

Free Full Text from Academic Emergency Medicine.

[6] Amiodarone is poorly effective for the acute termination of ventricular tachycardia.
Marill KA, deSouza IS, Nishijima DK, Stair TO, Setnik GS, Ruskin JN.
Ann Emerg Med. 2006 Mar;47(3):217-24. Epub 2005 Nov 21.
PMID: 16492484 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

[7] Intravenous amiodarone for the pharmacological termination of haemodynamically-tolerated sustained ventricular tachycardia: is bolus dose amiodarone an appropriate first-line treatment?
Tomlinson DR, Cherian P, Betts TR, Bashir Y.
Emerg Med J. 2008 Jan;25(1):15-8.
PMID: 18156531 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

[8] Adenosine for wide-complex tachycardia – diagnostic?
Thu, 23 Aug 2012
Rogue Medic
Article

[9] AMIODARONE HYDROCHLORIDE- amiodarone hydrochloride injection, solution
DailyMed
5 WARNINGS AND PRECAUTIONS
FDA Label

[10] Effects of intravenous amiodarone on ventricular refractoriness, intraventricular conduction, and ventricular tachycardia induction.
Kułakowski P, Karczmarewicz S, Karpiński G, Soszyńska M, Ceremuzyński L.
Europace. 2000 Jul;2(3):207-15.
PMID: 11227590 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

Free Full Text PDF + HTML from Europace

[11] Low doses of intravenous epinephrine for refractory sustained monomorphic ventricular tachycardia.
Bonny A, De Sisti A, Márquez MF, Megbemado R, Hidden-Lucet F, Fontaine G.
World J Cardiol. 2012 Oct 26;4(10):296-301. doi: 10.4330/wjc.v4.i10.296.
PMID: 23110246 [PubMed]

Free Full Text from PubMed Central.

[12] The calamity of cardioversion of conscious patients.
Kowey PR.
Am J Cardiol. 1988 May 1;61(13):1106-7. No abstract available.
PMID: 3364364

Kudenchuk PJ, Brown SP, Daya M, Rea T, Nichol G, Morrison LJ, Leroux B, Vaillancourt C, Wittwer L, Callaway CW, Christenson J, Egan D, Ornato JP, Weisfeldt ML, Stiell IG, Idris AH, Aufderheide TP, Dunford JV, Colella MR, Vilke GM, Brienza AM, Desvigne-Nickens P, Gray PC, Gray R, Seals N, Straight R, Dorian P, & Resuscitation Outcomes Consortium Investigators (2016). Amiodarone, Lidocaine, or Placebo in Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest. The New England journal of medicine, 374 (18), 1711-22 PMID: 27043165

Ortiz M, Martín A, Arribas F, Coll-Vinent B, Del Arco C, Peinado R, Almendral J, & PROCAMIO Study Investigators (2016). Randomized comparison of intravenous procainamide vs. intravenous amiodarone for the acute treatment of tolerated wide QRS tachycardia: the PROCAMIO study. European heart journal PMID: 27354046

Marill KA, deSouza IS, Nishijima DK, Senecal EL, Setnik GS, Stair TO, Ruskin JN, & Ellinor PT (2010). Amiodarone or procainamide for the termination of sustained stable ventricular tachycardia: an historical multicenter comparison. Academic emergency medicine : official journal of the Society for Academic Emergency Medicine, 17 (3), 297-306 PMID: 20370763

Marill KA, deSouza IS, Nishijima DK, Stair TO, Setnik GS, & Ruskin JN (2006). Amiodarone is poorly effective for the acute termination of ventricular tachycardia. Annals of emergency medicine, 47 (3), 217-24 PMID: 16492484

Tomlinson DR, Cherian P, Betts TR, & Bashir Y (2008). Intravenous amiodarone for the pharmacological termination of haemodynamically-tolerated sustained ventricular tachycardia: is bolus dose amiodarone an appropriate first-line treatment? Emergency medicine journal : EMJ, 25 (1), 15-8 PMID: 18156531

Kułakowski P, Karczmarewicz S, Karpiński G, Soszyńska M, & Ceremuzyński L (2000). Effects of intravenous amiodarone on ventricular refractoriness, intraventricular conduction, and ventricular tachycardia induction. Europace : European pacing, arrhythmias, and cardiac electrophysiology : journal of the working groups on cardiac pacing, arrhythmias, and cardiac cellular electrophysiology of the European Society of Cardiology, 2 (3), 207-15 PMID: 11227590

Bonny A, De Sisti A, Márquez MF, Megbemado R, Hidden-Lucet F, & Fontaine G (2012). Low doses of intravenous epinephrine for refractory sustained monomorphic ventricular tachycardia. World journal of cardiology, 4 (10), 296-301 PMID: 23110246

Kowey PR (1988). The calamity of cardioversion of conscious patients. The American journal of cardiology, 61 (13), 1106-7 PMID: 3364364

.

Acupuncture vs intravenous morphine in the management of acute pain in the ED

ResearchBlogging.org
 

What does elaborate placebo mean?

An elaborate placebo is a placebo that does better than a pill, or injection, apparently because the patient has more invested in the belief the placebo will work. An injection of a placebo (saline solution) may be more effective than a pill of real pain medicine because of the ceremony involved in giving the placebo through IV (IntraVenous) access. A placebo that is more expensive tends to have more of an effect than a less expensive placebo.[1],[2]

Acupuncture requires a lot of investment on the part of the patient. A more elaborate placebo might be fire walking. I don’t know of any research on fire walking as a treatment for pain, but I would not be surprised if it is extremely effective.
 

fire walking 1
Image credit. Do not try at home.
 

We know that acupuncture is just a placebo because research shows that sham (fake/placebo) acupuncture works just as well as real acupuncture. Sham acupuncture generally means using toothpicks (rather than needles), not penetrating the skin, but always using locations that are not qi points.[3],[4],[5]

If the essence of acupuncture is the magic of the qi points, but the same effect is produced when staying away from the qi points, the qi points aren’t doing anything.

This study did not use a sham acupuncture group. We have no reason to expect real acupuncture to provide more pain relief than sham acupuncture, so how should we use this information?

Should we have people providing fake acupuncture in the ED (Emergency Department)?

If so, how should we do this?

Since it is not the acupuncture, but the patient’s reaction to the ceremony of the placebo that appears to be providing the pain relief, how many different ways might we vary the treatment to improve the placebo effect?

Should we set up a fire walking pit?

What are the ethical concerns of using placebo medicine, when the placebo appears to provide similar, but safer, relief than real medicine?

What are the ethical concerns of using deception to treat patients?
 

Acupuncture versus intravenous morphine in the management of acute pain in the emergency department 1 with caption
 

Overall, 89 patients (29.3%) experienced minor adverse effects: 85 (56.6%) in morphine group and 4 (2.6%) in acupuncture group; the difference was signi ficant between the 2 groups (Table 3). The most frequent adverse effect was dizziness in the morphine group (42%) and needle breakage in the acupuncture group (2%). No major adverse effect was recorded during the study protocol. (See Table 4.)[6]

 

If we ignore the problems with this study and with the problem of lying to patients to make them feel better, can we expect research journals to look more like alternative medicine magazines with article titles like –

How to lie to patients, so that . . . .

What is the best scam to relieve pain?

How much integrity do we sacrifice?

Since the ED does not appear to be the source of the increase in opioid addiction, should we sacrifice any integrity in pursuit of placebo treatments?

We have an epidemic of opioid addiction because of excessive prescriptions for long-term pain.

The answer is not to try to create an epidemic of magical thinking.
 

This paper was also covered by –

Emergency Medicine Literature of Note

NEJM Journal Watch Emergency Medicine

Life in the Fast Lane

Science-Based Medicine

And thank you to Dr. Ryan Radecki of Emergency Medicine Literature of Note for providing me with a copy of the paper.

Footnotes:

[1] Placebo effect of medication cost in Parkinson disease: a randomized double-blind study.
Espay AJ, Norris MM, Eliassen JC, Dwivedi A, Smith MS, Banks C, Allendorfer JB, Lang AE, Fleck DE, Linke MJ, Szaflarski JP.
Neurology. 2015 Feb 24;84(8):794-802. doi: 10.1212/WNL.0000000000001282. Epub 2015 Jan 28.
PMID: 25632091

Free Full Text from PubMed Central

[2] Commercial features of placebo and therapeutic efficacy.
Waber RL, Shiv B, Carmon Z, Ariely D.
JAMA. 2008 Mar 5;299(9):1016-7. doi: 10.1001/jama.299.9.1016. No abstract available.
PMID: 18319411

Free Full Text in PDF format from Duke.edu

[3] Acupuncture for Menopausal Hot Flashes: A Randomized Trial.
Ee C, Xue C, Chondros P, Myers SP, French SD, Teede H, Pirotta M.
Ann Intern Med. 2016 Feb 2;164(3):146-54. doi: 10.7326/M15-1380. Epub 2016 Jan 19.
PMID: 26784863

Free Full Text in PDF format from carolinashealthcare.org

[4] A randomized trial comparing acupuncture, simulated acupuncture, and usual care for chronic low back pain.
Cherkin DC, Sherman KJ, Avins AL, Erro JH, Ichikawa L, Barlow WE, Delaney K, Hawkes R, Hamilton L, Pressman A, Khalsa PS, Deyo RA.
Arch Intern Med. 2009 May 11;169(9):858-66. doi: 10.1001/archinternmed.2009.65.
PMID: 19433697

Free Full Text from PubMed Central

[5] Acupuncture for treatment of persistent arm pain due to repetitive use: a randomized controlled clinical trial.
Goldman RH, Stason WB, Park SK, Kim R, Schnyer RN, Davis RB, Legedza AT, Kaptchuk TJ.
Clin J Pain. 2008 Mar-Apr;24(3):211-8.
PMID: 18287826 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

[6] Acupuncture vs intravenous morphine in the management of acute pain in the ED.
Grissa MH, Baccouche H, Boubaker H, Beltaief K, Bzeouich N, Fredj N, Msolli MA, Boukef R, Bouida W, Nouira S.
Am J Emerg Med. 2016 Jul 20. pii: S0735-6757(16)30422-3. doi: 10.1016/j.ajem.2016.07.028. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 27475042

ClinicalTrials.gov page for this study.

Grissa, M., Baccouche, H., Boubaker, H., Beltaief, K., Bzeouich, N., Fredj, N., Msolli, M., Boukef, R., Bouida, W., & Nouira, S. (2016). Acupuncture vs intravenous morphine in the management of acute pain in the ED The American Journal of Emergency Medicine DOI: 10.1016/j.ajem.2016.07.028

Espay, A., Norris, M., Eliassen, J., Dwivedi, A., Smith, M., Banks, C., Allendorfer, J., Lang, A., Fleck, D., Linke, M., & Szaflarski, J. (2015). Placebo effect of medication cost in Parkinson disease: A randomized double-blind study Neurology, 84 (8), 794-802 DOI: 10.1212/WNL.0000000000001282

Waber RL, Shiv B, Carmon Z, Ariely D. (2008). Commercial Features of Placebo and Therapeutic Efficacy JAMA, 299 (9) DOI: 10.1001/jama.299.9.1016

Ee, C., Xue, C., Chondros, P., Myers, S., French, S., Teede, H., & Pirotta, M. (2016). Acupuncture for Menopausal Hot Flashes Annals of Internal Medicine, 164 (3) DOI: 10.7326/M15-1380

Cherkin, D., Sherman, K., Avins, A., Erro, J., Ichikawa, L., Barlow, W., Delaney, K., Hawkes, R., Hamilton, L., Pressman, A., Khalsa, P., & Deyo, R. (2009). A Randomized Trial Comparing Acupuncture, Simulated Acupuncture, and Usual Care for Chronic Low Back Pain Archives of Internal Medicine, 169 (9) DOI: 10.1001/archinternmed.2009.65

Goldman, R., Stason, W., Park, S., Kim, R., Schnyer, R., Davis, R., Legedza, A., & Kaptchuk, T. (2008). Acupuncture for Treatment of Persistent Arm Pain Due to Repetitive Use The Clinical Journal of Pain, 24 (3), 211-218 DOI: 10.1097/AJP.0b013e31815ec20f

.

Is EMS a Trade or a Profession?

 

In the current issue of JEMS, there is an article by Dr. Bryan Bledsoe that does an excellent job of identifying many of the problems with low standards in EMS – at least if the quality of care is important.
 

Also, if you will note, the welding curriculum was revised in 2011.

The paramedic curriculum was last revised in 2009. Which trades would you say have had the most changes in the last eight to 10 years? Certainly changes in EMS have occurred much more frequently and are much more significant than those that have occurred in welding.[1]

 
trade vs profession 1

 
In some places, EMS has been more aggressive in changing treatment guidelines/protocols to improve the care delivered to patients. In other places, change has been resisted.

Backboards are rarely used in the places that have admitted that we do not have any valid evidence that backboards improve outcomes, while we do have good evidence that backboards cause harm. Even more important is the evidence that manipulating the patient’s spine in order to stabilize the spine is wishful thinking that encourages us to do exactly what we claim to be trying to prevent.

High dose NTG (NiTroGlycerin – GTN GlycerylTriNitrate in Commonwealth countries) is becoming much more widely used for acute CHF/ADHF (Acute Decompensated Heart Failure), because high dose NTG dramatically improves survival and decreases the perceived need for aggressive airway manipulation.

Likewise, furosemide is being eliminated from the CHF/ADHF guidelines/protocols, because furosemide does not do what it is supposed to do and furosemide causes harm that it is not supposed to cause.

Ketamine is becoming the drug for many indications. Ketamine may be the best sedative, best analgesic, best agitated delirium treatment available to EMS.

How do we know that we have been harming patients?

Enough people stopped listening to the old timers, the QA/QI/CYA people who don’t understand quality, the brand new if it were dangerous, it wouldn’t be in the protocol people, and other opponents of quality care.

People are paying more attention to the evience, rather than making excuses for the absence of evidence.
 

What is important is whether or not the graduating paramedic is competent and ready to assume the important role of prehospital care.[1]

 

Many states use the NREMT (National Registry of EMTs) test to determine if a paramedic is ready to become a new hire paramedic with no experience, some day to be able to work without a supervisor present. Some states continue to require this babe in the woods test of outdated material as their goal for even experienced paramedics.

The NREMT is holding EMS back.
 

It is time for the national standard curriculum to go away. We must meet and decide what the core competencies of a paramedic will be. We must validate these core competencies through scientific study. Then, we should leave it up to the educators to determine how best to educate their students in these core competencies.[1]

 

The paramedic curriculum, revered by the NREMT, harms patients.

Why are we protecting a curriculum that harms patients?

Footnotes:

[1] Is EMS a Trade or a Profession?
Thu, Jul 28, 2016
ByBryan Bledsoe, DO, FACEP, FAAEM, EMT-P
JEMS Editorial Board member
Journal of EMS (JEMS)
Article

.

When logic fails, throw propane on the fire?

 

Many of us have had discussions that became heated, because the other person would not see reason, we would not see reason, or neither of us would see reason. And that is if there are just two opinions involved.

Here is an article about someone who got a bit carried away with making his point and lost perspective.
 

A family argument over whether the Earth is flat or round became so heated that one of the participants threw a propane cylinder onto a campfire, prompting an intervention by firefighters.[1]

 

Flat Earth Hitler 1aa
 

I know. Dramatic, but harmless

Don’t worry.

Everybody knows that propane tanks have safety valves, so they don’t blow up.

Right?
 


 

It turns out that propane tanks do not share that opinion.

The following video does an excellent job of explaining why a full tank may take a while to explode. This is a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion), which any first responder should be familiar with. We should know enough to not throw, or even gently place, containers of flammable material on fires, unless intending to cause an explosion.
 


 

What about the topic of discussion? Is the earth flat?

Common sense tells us that the earth is flat.

Science, a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results,[2] shows us that the earth is not quite flat.

There is an excellent short article explaining the way science has improved our understanding of the shape of the earth.
 

In the early days of civilization, the general feeling was that the earth was flat. This was not because people were stupid, or because they were intent on believing silly things. They felt it was flat on the basis of sound evidence. It was not just a matter of “That’s how it looks,” because the earth does not look flat. It looks chaotically bumpy, with hills, valleys, ravines, cliffs, and so on.[3]

 
 

Nowadays, of course, we are taught that the flat-earth theory is wrong; that it is all wrong, terribly wrong, absolutely. But it isn’t. The curvature of the earth is nearly 0 per mile, so that although the flat-earth theory is wrong, it happens to be nearly right. That’s why the theory lasted so long.[3]

 

There were observations that were not consistent with a flat earth. The rest of the article explains the way science showed us the more accurate answers.

Was the person right to throw a propane cylinder into a fire? No.

If the earth is not flat, does that mean that it is round? No.

Read The Relativity of Wrong and learn a bit about how science works and what it means to be wrong.

Footnotes:

[1] Police, firefighters called in after flat Earth debate turns heated – Man angered by suggestion Earth is flat threw propane tank into fire, police say
CBC News
Posted: Jun 14, 2016 5:09 PM ET
Last Updated: Jun 14, 2016 6:00 PM ET
Article

[2] Skeptical Quote of the Week
Quote by Dr. Steven Novella
The Skeptics’ Guide to the Universe
Podcast #410
May 25th, 2013
Synopsis
 

What do you think science is? There’s nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. Which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic? – Dr. Steven Novella.

 

[3] The Relativity of Wrong
By Isaac Asimov
The Skeptical Inquirer
Fall 1989, Vol. 14, No. 1, Pp. 35-44
Article from Tufts University

.

The Magical Nonsense of Friday the 13th

ResearchBlogging.org
 

Today we celebrate the fears of those who do not understand that magic does not affect reality. Our fears of magic can affect reality, when we act on those fears. Why should a special day cause more problems than a boring day? Many people believe in magic powers as being more than just the fictional entertainment we see in novels and movies.

Here is another study of the effects of Friday the 13th on emergency medicine/EMS that I have not written about. It is no surprise that they did not find what is not there – an influence of this magic date on the type or volume of patients in the emergency department.
 

CONCLUSIONS:
Although the fear of Friday the 13th may exist, there is no worry that an increase in volume occurs on Friday the 13th compared with the other days studies. Of 13 different conditions evaluated, only penetrating traumas were seen more often on Friday the 13th. For those providers who work in the ED, working on Friday the 13th should not be any different than any other day.
[1]

 

When measuring of a large number of variables, it is expected that one, or more, will appear to be statistically significant. This is why the p value of outcomes should be adjusted when there are multiple outcomes being measured. The p value is just a measure of how likely it is that the result occurred by chance (and thus meaningless), so the more chances, the more likely that the meaningless is considered significant.
 

Fear of Friday the 13th is mistakenly attributing some magical power to a day, to a number, to the calendar, and/or to some other variation of belief in the magic of numbers.

Numbers are important and can provide us with useful information about the risks in our lives. The risks we take confidently, cautiously, or those we don’t take. Often our decisions about risk are based on faulty information, such as the fear of a date. Mathematical literacy is necessary to understand the ways that we can use numbers to obtain valid information. John Allen Paulos created the term innumeracy to describe our lack of literacy in the language of numbers. He explained this in 1988 in his book Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and its Consequences.[2]
 

Innumeracy cover
 


 

Oh! But what about Lies, damned lies, and statistics?

Doesn’t using math make it easier for people to lie to us?

No. Ignorance of math makes it easier for people to lie to us with math.

People do not often lie with numbers. People lie with words. Maybe they lie with the salesman smile. Maybe they lie with the fear monger frown. Maybe they lie unintentionally, because they don’t know what they are talking about. They lie with words. Our ignorance of logic, not our understanding of math, is what allows us to fall victim to most lies.

Today is another Friday that is no more exciting than any other Friday.

Luck works in our favor when we are prepared for the results of our actions, but that is not the kind of luck many people want to understand.
 

Happy Friday the 13th – New and Improved with Space Debris – Fri, 13 Nov 2015

Friday the 13th and full-moon – the ‘worst case scenario’ or only superstition? – Fri, 13 Jun 2014

Blue Moon 2012 – Except parts of Oceanea – Fri, 31 Aug 2012

2009’s Top Threat To Science In Medicine – Fri, 01 Jan 2010

T G I Friday the 13th – Fri, 13 Nov 2009

Happy Equinox! – Thu, 20 Mar 2008

Footnotes:

[1] Answering the myth: use of emergency services on Friday the 13th.
Lo BM, Visintainer CM, Best HA, Beydoun HA.
Am J Emerg Med. 2012 Jul;30(6):886-9. doi: 10.1016/j.ajem.2011.06.008. Epub 2011 Aug 19.
PMID: 21855260

[2] Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and its Consequences
Wikipedia
Page on Wikipedia

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Dr. Kudenchuk is Misrepresenting ALPS as ‘Significant’

ResearchBlogging.org
 

The results of ALPS (Amiodarone, Lidocaine, Placebo Study) are clear. There is no statistically significant difference in cardiac arrest outcomes with amiodarone or lidocaine, when compared with placebo.
 

Conclusions Overall, neither amiodarone nor lidocaine resulted in a significantly higher rate of survival or favorable neurologic outcome than the rate with placebo among patients with out-of-hospital cardiac arrest due to initial shock-refractory ventricular fibrillation or pulseless ventricular tachycardia.[1]

 

This study was very well done, but it was not designed to provide valid information about the effects of amiodarone or lidocaine on witnessed arrests or on EMS Witnessed arrests. Maybe the authors were overconfident.

In resuscitation research, we have abundant evidence that overconfidence is much more common than improvements in outcomes. There is no study that has shown an improvement in neurologically intact survival to discharge with any drug. Leaving the hospital with a working brain is the result that matters most to patients. We give drugs because we have too much confidence in the drugs and we are treating our confidence, not because we are doing anything to benefit the patients.
 

I WANT TO BE DECEIVED version of Domenichino, Virgin and Unicorn 1 copy
 

In ALPS there was a subgroup that might have reached statistical significance, but the researchers never determined what would be statistically significant when setting up the study, so these results are merely post hoc data mining (fitting the numbers to allow for a positive spin).

This is the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. The Texas sharpshooter shoots at the side of a barn, then draws targets around the bullet holes so that the the bullet holes are in the bull’s eyes.
 


 

The Texas sharpshooter didn’t shoot at any target, but he went back later and made it look like he hit the center of the target, because he drew the target around the bullet holes. Science requires that we state our hypotheses ahead of time, so that scientists are kept honest. Science requires that we calculate statistical significance ahead of time, especially for secondary outcomes/subgroup analysis, which may mean decreasing the p value to less than 0.03, or to less than 0.01, or even lower to reach statistical significance, so that scientists are kept honest. You are not permitted to bet on the outcome of a horse race that is already in progress for the same reason.

Why do we need to keep scientists honest? Because, as Dr. Peter Kudenchuk unintentionally demonstrates, scientists are just as biased as everyone else. Scientists need to follow the rules of science to minimize the influence of prejudices, such as overconfidence. When scientists do not follow these rules, they are just as easily fooled as everyone else and they may use that self-delusion, and their reputation, to fool others. Dr. Oz makes a fortune telling people what they want to hear about treatments that do not work.

I don’t claim that Dr. Kudenchuk, or even Dr. Oz, is deliberately fooling others, only that they have fooled themselves and are trying to convince others that their prejudices are accurate representations of reality. Here is what Dr. Kudenchuk has been telling people –
 

Researchers have confirmed that certain heart rhythm medications, when given by paramedics to patients with out-of-hospital cardiac arrest who had failed electrical shock treatment, improved likelihood of patients surviving transport to the hospital.[2]

 

The researchers have not confirmed any such thing.

If Dr. Kudenchuk wants to study whether amiodarone or lidocaine or both improve outcomes for witnessed cardiac arrest patients, or for EMS witnessed cardiac arrest patients, he needs to set up a study with all of the criteria for a positive result specified before the start of the study, because this study did not. The study explicitly states this, so Dr. Kudenchuk should be able to just read the study and see that he is wrong. Here is another statement that contradicts the information that was published.
 

Two groups of patients were pre-specified by the study as likely to respond differently to treatment: those with a witnessed cardiac arrest and those with an unwitnessed arrest. When it was originally designed, the study predicted that because patients with witnessed cardiac arrest are recognized and treated sooner, they would more likely be responsive to effective treatments than unwitnessed arrests. When first discovered, patients with an unwitnessed arrest are more likely to have already sustained irreversible organ damage resulting from a longer “down time” and less likely to respond to any treatment. This is precisely what was seen in the study – a statistically significant 5% improvement in survival to hospital discharge in witnessed arrests, and no effect from the drugs in unwitnessed arrests.[3]

 

Why does the published version of the paper contradict Dr. Kudenchuk? One of our biases is to remember things differently from the way things really happened. This is why eyewitness testimony is so often wrong. Here is what the published paper states about the witnessed arrest results.
 

We observed an interaction of treatment with the witnessed status of out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, which is often taken as a surrogate for early recognition of cardiac arrest, a short interval between the patient’s collapse from cardiac arrest and the initiation of treatment, and a greater likelihood of therapeutic responsiveness. Though prespecified, this subgroup analysis was performed in the context of an insignificant difference for the overall analysis, and the P value for heterogeneity in this subgroup analysis was not adjusted for the number of subgroup comparisons. Nonetheless, the suggestion that survival was improved by drug treatment in patients with witnessed out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, without evidence of harm in those with unwitnessed arrest, merits thoughtful consideration.[1]

 

The authors did not adjust the p value, so the authors do not claim that the witnessed cardiac arrest results are statistically significant. They only state that these results merit thoughtful consideration. In other words, if we want to claim this hypothesis is true, we need to set up a study to actually examine this hypothesis.

One earlier study (also by ROC – the Resuscitation Outcomes Consortium) even has similar results.[4],[5] These results are also not statistically significant, but suggest that with larger numbers the results might be significant. So why did the authors set up such a small study? Overconfidence and an apparent lack of familiarity with their own research.
 


 

The Seattle phenomenon (they claim that their resuscitation rate is the highest in America) seems to be due to excellent bystander CPR rates (apparently the highest in America), but that is only good enough for them to be experts on improving bystander CPR rates. The rest is probably due to defibrillation and chest compressions, which are the only prehospital interventions demonstrated to improve neurologically intact survival.

Why does a bystander CPR specialist focus on drugs? Overconfidence and an apparent lack of understanding of the resuscitation research. Dr. Kudenchuk preaches like Timothy Leary about the benefits of drugs and with just as little evidence. We should give appropriate credit for Dr. Kudenchuk’s work on CPR, but we should not mistake that for a thorough understanding of the resuscitation research, even the research with his name attached.
 

A new podcast reviews ALPS. Dominick Walenczak does not notice the mistakes of Dr. Kudenchuk, but he is not one of the researchers, so that is easy to overlook. The rest of the podcast is excellent. Listen to it here.
 

Episode 8: Conquering the ALPS (Study)
CritMedic – Critical Care Paramedicine Podcast
Dominick Walenczak
April 7, 2016
Podcast page
 

Footnotes:

[1] Amiodarone, Lidocaine, or Placebo in Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest.
Kudenchuk PJ, Brown SP, Daya M, Rea T, Nichol G, Morrison LJ, Leroux B, Vaillancourt C, Wittwer L, Callaway CW, Christenson J, Egan D, Ornato JP, Weisfeldt ML, Stiell IG, Idris AH, Aufderheide TP, Dunford JV, Colella MR, Vilke GM, Brienza AM, Desvigne-Nickens P, Gray PC, Gray R, Seals N, Straight R, Dorian P; Resuscitation Outcomes Consortium Investigators.
N Engl J Med. 2016 Apr 4. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 27043165

Free Full Text from NEJM

[2] Antiarrhythmic drugs found beneficial when used by EMS treating cardiac arrest
Press release
For Immediate Release:April 4, 2016
NHLBI (National Heart Lung and Blood Institute)
Press release

[3] Dr. Kudenchuk: Study reveals exciting news about cardiac arrest treatment
Lindsay Bosslet
18 hours ago
Public Health Insider
Article

[4] Wide variability in drug use in out-of-hospital cardiac arrest: A report from the resuscitation outcomes consortium.
Glover BM, Brown SP, Morrison L, Davis D, Kudenchuk PJ, Van Ottingham L, Vaillancourt C, Cheskes S, Atkins DL, Dorian P; Resuscitation Outcomes Consortium Investigators.
Resuscitation. 2012 Nov;83(11):1324-30. doi: 10.1016/j.resuscitation.2012.07.008. Epub 2012 Jul 31.
PMID: 22858552 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

Free Full Text from PubMed Central.

[5] Wide variability in drug use in out-of-hospital cardiac arrest: A report from the resuscitation outcomes consortium – Part I
Mon, 17 Sep 2012
Rogue Medic
Article

 
Kudenchuk, P., Brown, S., Daya, M., Rea, T., Nichol, G., Morrison, L., Leroux, B., Vaillancourt, C., Wittwer, L., Callaway, C., Christenson, J., Egan, D., Ornato, J., Weisfeldt, M., Stiell, I., Idris, A., Aufderheide, T., Dunford, J., Colella, M., Vilke, G., Brienza, A., Desvigne-Nickens, P., Gray, P., Gray, R., Seals, N., Straight, R., & Dorian, P. (2016). Amiodarone, Lidocaine, or Placebo in Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest New England Journal of Medicine DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa1514204

 

Glover BM, Brown SP, Morrison L, Davis D, Kudenchuk PJ, Van Ottingham L, Vaillancourt C, Cheskes S, Atkins DL, Dorian P, & the Resuscitation Outcomes Consortium Investigators (2012). Wide variability in drug use in out-of-hospital cardiac arrest: A report from the resuscitation outcomes consortium. Resuscitation PMID: 22858552

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Amiodarone, Lidocaine, or Placebo in Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest

ResearchBlogging.org
 

I wrote about the start of the ALPS (Amiodarone, Lidocaine, Placebo Study) in 2012[1] and the results are now in.
 

In this randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, prehospital trial, we found that treatment with amiodarone or lidocaine did not result in a significantly higher rate of survival to hospital discharge or favorable neurologic outcome at discharge than the rate with placebo after out-of-hospital cardiac arrest caused by shock-refractory initial ventricular fibrillation or pulseless ventricular tachycardia. There were also no significant differences in these outcomes between amiodarone and lidocaine.[2]

 

The primary endpoint is that amiodarone does not improve survival to discharge and neither does lidocaine. However, the results are a bit more complicated than just throw out the drugs.

Two subgroups did have better outcomes, but as the authors appropriately point out, subgroup analysis requires a higher level of significance, because you are essentially getting extra shots at the goal for every subgroup. The more subgroups we have, the more likely that one of them will reach the p value of <0.05.  

We observed an interaction of treatment with the witnessed status of out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, which is often taken as a surrogate for early recognition of cardiac arrest, a short interval between the patient’s collapse from cardiac arrest and the initiation of treatment, and a greater likelihood of therapeutic responsiveness. Though prespecified, this subgroup analysis was performed in the context of an insignificant difference for the overall analysis, and the P value for heterogeneity in this subgroup analysis was not adjusted for the number of subgroup comparisons. Nonetheless, the suggestion that survival was improved by drug treatment in patients with witnessed out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, without evidence of harm in those with unwitnessed arrest, merits thoughtful consideration.[2]

 

Another important point is that the possibility of an effect was probably overestimated by the researchers. A much larger study would be needed to show this smaller effect.
 

Finally, the point estimates of the survival rates in the placebo group and the amiodarone group differed less than anticipated when the trial was designed, which suggests that the trial may have been underpowered. If amiodarone has a true treatment effect of 3 percentage points, approximately 9000 patients across the three trial groups would be needed to establish this difference in outcome with 90% power. Though seemingly small, a confirmed overall difference of 3 percentage points in survival with drug therapy would mean that 1800 additional lives could be saved each year in North America alone after out-of-hospital cardiac arrest.[2]

 

How could the top doctors in the field be so far off in their estimate?

We dramatically overestimate the good we do and we dramatically underestimate the harm we do. We are unreasonably optimistic.
 

Monty Hall problem vs medicine 1
Image credit.
 

We still do not have any evidence that anything other than compressions and defibrillation improve outcomes for adult patients with cardiac arrest, but we insist on using these treatments, because we believe in magic pills.

Should we consider giving amiodarone or lidocaine to only witnessed cardiac arrest patients or only EMS-witnessed cardiac arrest? Yes, but that is really just limiting the use of these drugs to those who have some weak evidence of benefit.

We are already giving too many treatments to too many patients, based on too little evidence.

That is assuming that we have any valid evidence at all. Medical ethics appears to be only for other people, because we don’t care enough to find out if our treatments work. We just make excuses for the harm we cause to our patients.

Footnotes:

[1] What Will Be the Next Standard Of Care We Eliminate
Wed, 28 Mar 2012
Rogue Medic
Article

[2] Amiodarone, Lidocaine, or Placebo in Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest
Amiodarone, Lidocaine, or Placebo in Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest.
Kudenchuk PJ, Brown SP, Daya M, Rea T, Nichol G, Morrison LJ, Leroux B, Vaillancourt C, Wittwer L, Callaway CW, Christenson J, Egan D, Ornato JP, Weisfeldt ML, Stiell IG, Idris AH, Aufderheide TP, Dunford JV, Colella MR, Vilke GM, Brienza AM, Desvigne-Nickens P, Gray PC, Gray R, Seals N, Straight R, Dorian P; Resuscitation Outcomes Consortium Investigators.
N Engl J Med. 2016 Apr 4. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 27043165

Free Full Text from NEJM

 
Kudenchuk, P., Brown, S., Daya, M., Rea, T., Nichol, G., Morrison, L., Leroux, B., Vaillancourt, C., Wittwer, L., Callaway, C., Christenson, J., Egan, D., Ornato, J., Weisfeldt, M., Stiell, I., Idris, A., Aufderheide, T., Dunford, J., Colella, M., Vilke, G., Brienza, A., Desvigne-Nickens, P., Gray, P., Gray, R., Seals, N., Straight, R., & Dorian, P. (2016). Amiodarone, Lidocaine, or Placebo in Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest New England Journal of Medicine DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa1514204

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ABQ to Pay $.3 Million More for Bad Oversight of Bad Medic

 

It appears that bad management tolerated, and promoted, bad patient care – right up until it affected one of their own. Now the residents have to pay a lot of money for this failure of oversight.

How typical is this medic?
 

Throughout the litigation, Tate denied any wrongdoing. He maintained his work behavior was part of the “culture” of the Fire Department.[1]

 

AFD_logo
 

The AFD (Albuquerque Fire Department) disagrees and convinced at least one “hearing officer” that it is only because the rest of the paramedics are better than Tate that his patients did not have worse outcomes.

Does that make any sense?

I discussed the complaints at the time of an earlier article about Tate and AFD.[2]

If you work with a dangerous paramedic, and you do not report any problems, does that make you better than the problem paramedic?

How does such a dangerous paramedic get promoted to lieutenant?

Is it likely that competent management remained unaware of these problems for a decade, or that this was a sudden onset of an unprecedented problem, or that in some other way this is not an example of bad management?
 

Other organizations have had to deal with criticism after their management of the corruption was exposed –
 

The Vatican revealed Tuesday that over the past decade, it has defrocked 848 priests who raped or molested children and sanctioned another 2,572 with lesser penalties, providing the first ever breakdown of how it handled the more than 3,400 cases of abuse reported to the Holy See since 2004.[3]

 

For hundreds of years we have been told that priests don’t rape children, because they are more moral than the rest of us. Evidence has demonstrated otherwise, but the corrupt culture still discourages reporting these crimes to the police.

Is there some reason to believe that Tate is just one rotten apple?

No.

This appears to be another example of a corrupt culture, that will end up costing a lot more money and setting bad standards of care.

Are the patients surviving to the emergency department because of the care provided or just because most people will survive what EMS does to them?
 

Cadigan told the Journal in 2014 that he was confident Tate would be “vindicated when he has a neutral judge to review the city’s unfair and arbitrary action. The taxpayers will likely have to pick up the tab for this absurd witch hunt.”[1]

 

Vindicated for treating the family of a fellow AFD lieutenant the same way he would treat other patients?
 

Tate claimed his conduct was consistent with what he learned at the Fire Department and argued that even if he did commit the alleged acts, he should be given corrective training.[1]

 

Maybe Tate did receive corrective training.

Repeated reminders to fit in with the culture is how corruption works.

If the culture is not the problem, why did an investigation only begin after a complaint about Tate treating one of his own the same way he is reported to treat other patients?

Footnotes:

[1] $300K settlement keeps paramedic from getting job back
By Colleen Heild / Journal Investigative Reporter
Saturday, April 2nd, 2016 at 11:45pm
Albuquerque Journal
Article

[2] How Do We Stop Dangerous Paramedics From Harming Patients?
Sat, 02 Nov 2013
Rogue Medic
Article

[3] Vatican says it’s punished over 3,400 priests since ’04 for raping or molesting children
The Associated Press
Published: 06 May 2014 03:56 PM
Updated: 06 May 2014 04:04 PM
The Dallas Morning News
Article

.